Legislature(1995 - 1996)

03/01/1995 03:40 PM Senate RES

Audio Topic
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
txt
 SRES 3/1/95                                                                   
                  HB 121 SALVAGE TIMBER SALES                                 
                                                                               
  SENATOR LEMAN announced HB 121 to be up for consideration.                  
                                                                               
 JACK PHELPS, Legislative Aide to Representative Williams, said the            
 intent of HB 121 and the substance of the bill is to provide                  
 another management tool to the Division of Forestry to deal with              
 salvage timber.  It doesn't mandate any action on the part of the             
 Department.  It simply expands the range of options available to              
 DNR so they can respond to forest health situations.  Salvage sales           
 would still be subject to forest land use plans just like any other           
 sale.                                                                         
                                                                               
 What this bill does mean, he said, is that in salvage situations              
 timber can be available within four to six months instead of two to           
 three years, but there would still be ample opportunity for public            
 involvement.  The Forest Land Use Plan required under these                   
 provisions would have to support the best interest finding that is            
 required by the bill.                                                         
                                                                               
 Habitat protection is no more at risk with salvage sales than it is           
 with any other sale of State timber under current law.                        
                                                                               
 TOM BOUTIN, Director, Division of Forestry, said they had a                   
 proposed amendment.  It would make two changes.  The first is in              
 Section 1 (a), line 10 where they insert "dead or dying" before               
 "timber" and they delete "stands".  He said they still have the               
 same ability to have salvage sales without them having been in the            
 five-year plan for the two-prior years which he thought was the               
 sole intent in Section 1(a).                                                  
                                                                               
 He suggested deleting Section 1(b), because the Division of                   
 Forestry very rarely does negotiated sales.  He said they do one or           
 two a year in McGrath where there is no competitive interest                  
 whatsoever.  Occasionally they do agriculture parcels in Delta by             
 negotiated sale for junk timber that someone just wants to get rid            
 of, and no one has an interest in, but the party that wants to                
 clear the timber.  There is not a disadvantage to having a                    
 competitive sale.  He said this neutralized some opposition to the            
 bill.                                                                         
                                                                               
 SENATOR TAYLOR asked him why he searched out the opposition.  MR.             
 BOUTIN replied that it was worth trying to really find out what the           
 opposition is concerned with and seeing if it can be accommodated.            
                                                                               
 SENATOR TAYLOR asked him if the administration would support the              
 bill without the changes.  MR. BOUTIN said he understood that the             
 Administration would not support the bill without the changes.                
                                                                               
 Number 401                                                                    
                                                                               
 SENATOR TAYLOR said he was concerned with inserting "dead or dying"           
 because they are talking about an infestation of epidemic                     
 proportions upon a large drainage.  He was surprised that he would            
 use that kind of language when the treatment they are trying to               
 accomplish is the eradication of that epidemic.  MR. BOUTIN replied           
 that if this bill was giving them the ability to sell the timber at           
 all, he would share his concern, but all section 1(a) does is give            
 them the ability to exempt the Division from having the sale in the           
 five-year plan for the two-prior years.  They are really trying to            
 address situations where there is a certain urgency.  People are              
 concerned that they will use that urgency in some other way.                  
                                                                               
 SENATOR TAYLOR noted that Alaska has a forest base that is 25%                
 larger in volume than all the forested lands in Alberta, Canada.              
 Alberta, today, has 32,000 people directly employed in a timber               
 industry base on a sustained yield basis using exactly the same               
 boreal forest that we have in Alaska.  He said that the Division of           
 Forestry does not deal with large timber sales and he wanted to               
 know what they were going to do to treat over a billion board feet            
 of desecrated timber that's been left to rot by several                       
 administrations and their colleagues who did everything to make               
 certain that that timber wasn't harvested.                                    
                                                                               
 SENATOR TAYLOR said he has not offered amendments to this bill,               
 because he wanted to give the department the greatest opportunity             
 to do negotiated sales, to take care of treatment of epidemics that           
 have some affect.                                                             
                                                                               
 MR. BOUTIN reiterated that they have done a good job of                       
 neutralizing opposition, and where they haven't neutralized it,               
 they have gone to court and won.  The best place to do it is before           
 you get to court and he thought this bill with the suggested                  
 changes would further that goal.                                              
                                                                               
 Number 334                                                                    
                                                                               
 SENATOR LEMAN asked him to comment on his fiscal note.  MR. BOUTIN            
 said it gives a number of options depending on the interpretation.            
 He said if this bill contemplates an increase in timber                       
 productivity, then there's a proportional increase in cost, etc.              
                                                                               
 SENATOR LINCOLN asked him which fiscal note he assumed his                    
 Department would go with.  MR. BOUTIN said he supposed the sponsors           
 of the bill did not contemplate increasing the amount of timber               
 volume or substituting salvage sales and had assumed number one,              
 but he didn't really know what the case was and laid out some                 
 options.                                                                      
                                                                               
 Number 283                                                                    
                                                                               
 DANNY CARPENTER, 15-year resident of Alaska, said the demise of               
 salmon runs on the West Coast is very real and it is directly                 
 related to development and resource extraction.  He believes in               
 development, but not with inconsequential effects on other                    
 profitable industries.  HB 121 is written as an employment bill for           
 a small group of people and, secondly, to provide material for saw            
 and chip mills at, undoubtedly, a discount rate; and, lastly, a               
 solution to the spruce bark beetle epidemic.  He said if you're               
 serious about containing the epidemic, transporting infested timber           
 to healthy areas or chipping trees and distributing beetles and               
 larvae in a healthy area is not a great idea. He also could not see           
 how they could tell two years in advance which timber might be                
 affected.  He suggested researching whether current forestry                  
 procedures have been put into affect and if not, why not.                     
 He concluded saying that the salvage sales would directly impact              
 the health and habitat of his area to provide a few jobs for some             
 loggers in Senator Taylor's area.                                             
                                                                               
 Number 230                                                                    
                                                                               
 JAMES MYKLAND, Cordova resident, said he spent the first 20 years             
 of his life in Washington State and the last 24 years in the Prince           
 William Sound area as a commercial fisherman.  MR. MYKLAND said he            
 opposed HB 121 as written.  Large volume timber sales should be               
 offered competitively and with public notice.  The Commissioner of            
 Natural Resources in this bill is given unchecked power.  He noted            
 that no reforestation is required within the salvage areas in HB
 121.                                                                          
                                                                               
 MR. MYKLAND said that watershed protection should be the number one           
 priority of the DNR, not timber sales or resource development.  In            
 Washington he saw large scale loss of fish and wildlife habitat.              
 In his opinion, that is one of the main reasons that the resources            
 on the West Coast States have been decimated.  They are almost non-           
 existent.  The value of our forests is not just in the standing               
 trees.                                                                        
                                                                               
 SENATOR TAYLOR said he just checked with the State Forester and               
 reforestation would be required on these sales and then commented             
 that, on the average in Alaska, forest fires burn 15,000 acres a              
 year in just the Tanana Valley.  There is no one responsible for              
 reforesting it.  It's just charred and lays there.  There are 1,000           
 acres a year harvested which is all reforested as part of the                 
 contract.  He commented that it sounded like they would probably be           
 happier if the billion board feet and who knows how many hundred              
 thousand acres of dead and dying trees would burn up.                         
                                                                               
 JUILLIANNE DE LA HUNT, Trustees for Alaska, said she was testifying           
 on behalf of Kris Balliet who was concerned that the public process           
 was being circumvented in this bill.  She asked the Committee to              
 consider that leading experts in the field do not consider the                
 spruce bark beetle an epidemic, but part of a natural forest                  
 process.  Cutting in salvage sales involves cutting a large number            
 of green trees.  It's not a treatment for bark beetles, even if it            
 were an infestation.  The existing Forest Practices Act has                   
 provisions that would allow DNR to do exactly what it appears this            
 Committee is concerned with.                                                  
                                                                               
 SENATOR TAYLOR asked her who pays her wages.  MS. DE LA HUNT said             
 Trustees For Alaska is funded from many sources including many                
 individual Alaskans.                                                          
                                                                               
 Number 89                                                                     
                                                                               
 ROGER SIGLIN, Environmental Center, said it was clear that they               
 need to get the legislature out of the timber managing business.              
 He thought that most of the environmental community supports                  
 logging, but not at the expense of other values.  He urged them to            
 make sure there was a fair process established that would                     
 adequately represent everyone's values and interests.                         
                                                                               
 LARRY PAQUIN, Fairbanks resident, opposed HB 121, because it                  
 attempts to circumvent existing forest management laws - The Forest           
 Practices Act and the five-year harvest schedules.  This bill makes           
 a mockery of forest management, since the Commissioner can waive              
 the two-year public notice for the 500,000 board feet limit if he             
 suspects state timber is being underutilized, or if a high level of           
 unemployment exists.                                                          
                                                                               
 TAPE 95-19, SIDE A                                                            
                                                                               
 MR. PAQUIN said this legislation would set a bad precedent for                
 forest management in the future.  He was concerned that forests be            
 managed responsibly and for sustained yield management for future             
 generations.  This is all that those people who oppose HB 121 are             
 asking for, he commented.                                                     
                                                                               
 SEAN MCGUIRE, Fairbanks resident, said that Jan Dahl wants the                
 Committee to consider her request for having fiscal notes for all             
 three of the resource agencies - ADF&G, DEC, and DNR.                         
                                                                               
 He challenged the idea of using the term "waste."  He said the                
 trees do not go to waste, they fall down and replenish the soil.              
 It is even crucial to the health of the soil.                                 
                                                                               
 He did not like the idea that one person in DNR could make a                  
 decision to sign a 25-year contract.  He thought it was a loop hole           
 and that someone would someday use it.                                        
                                                                               
 MR. MCQUIRE said it seems that the Republicans are basically                  
 supporting logging interests that generally represent a tiny                  
 fraction of Alaskans.  The perception is beginning to be that the             
 Republicans are doing this to the detriment of most Alaskans.                 
                                                                               
 WILLY DUNNE, Fritz Creek resident, noted that four people who could           
 have testified on Monday could not make it back today.  He said he            
 is a hunter and fisherman and he has a strong interest in the use             
 of our forest resources.  He is not opposed to timber harvest.  He            
 noted this bill is opposed by commercial fishermen, loggers, timber           
 operators, log home builders, and conservation groups around the              
 state.                                                                        
                                                                               
 Section 1 of this bill does not increase timber supply so much as             
 just speeding up the process of disposing of timber.  Section 2               
 could generate long term timber supply under negotiated contracts,            
 but a 25-year negotiated contract would not exactly be a salvage              
 sale.  He didn't know of anyone in DNR who would say that logging             
 improves forest health problems.  In fact, many biologists and                
 forest ecologists feel that insects and fire are a natural part of            
 a forest ecosystem.                                                           
                                                                               
 He asked them to consider amendments to this bill to make it more             
 palatable to the public.  If the true intent of the bill is                   
 salvage, the perception is that it would do something more than               
 that.                                                                         
                                                                               
 Number 102                                                                    
                                                                               
 LARRY SMITH, Kachemak Resource Institute, said they try to                    
 interface the economy with ecology, because they don't operate well           
 without each other.                                                           
                                                                               
 MR. SMITH said he is also a home builder and he thought the best              
 wood to use for this purpose was five-year old standing dead wood             
 that has had time to reach ambient moisture levels.  30-year old              
 standing dead wood is even better, he said.                                   
                                                                               
 Piecemeal revisions to the Forest Practices Act coming through the            
 legislature are exactly that, he said, and proposed establishing a            
 special committee on forest resources, perhaps supported by a                 
 working group, to resolve the issues.                                         
                                                                               
 He said that a total review was promised when the Title 38 and 41             
 revisions in the Forest Practices Act were made law by the 1990               
 legislature.  Back then he sponsored the beetle control language,             
 including the amendments making salvage a requirement.                        
                                                                               
 There needs to be a thorough fiscal review, because he didn't think           
 DNR and ADF&G have the resources to properly deal with the issues.            
 The last 12 salvage sales are cases in point.  He emphasized if               
 they are going to remove the time for audit in the five-year                  
 schedules for collecting extra local knowledge about impact on                
 resources and for the agencies to do the work the Forest Practices            
 Act requires, they would have to put significant up-front money               
 into this legislation so the same work can be done on an                      
 accelerated basis.                                                            
                                                                               
 He said they would be trashing wetlands, fish resources, and noted            
 that the Corps of Engineers are exempted from permitting nationally           
 for logging work in wetlands which caused a big problem in the head           
 waters of the Ninilchik River where, he explained, a new anadromous           
 fish stream was discovered.                                                   
                                                                               
 Number 234                                                                    
                                                                               
 SANDRA MESKE, Alaska Women In Timber, supported HB 121.  She said             
 they are in favor of multiple use management of our state lands.              
 She stated that ignoring the problems caused by the extensive                 
 spruce bark beetle infestation on state lands does not provide                
 multiple use or proper management of our natural resources.                   
 Recreationalists, wildlife, local economies, and resource                     
 industries all suffer under mismanagement.  HB 121 offers a                   
 solution to this management crisis.                                           
                                                                               
 ERIC MUENCH, Ketchikan, supported HB 121.  He said it gives DNR the           
 necessary flexibility to deal with insect outbreaks and control the           
 loss of value.  In over 30 years in Alaska, he has seen several               
 instances where the delay of salvage for as little as two years has           
 either lowered the revenues and volume recovery of a sale or made             
 it necessary to "sweeten the pot" of a sale by including green                
 timber at a salvage price.  He said deterioration of the wood                 
 starts as soon as the tree dies, and that dead trees are more of a            
 fire hazard than live ones.                                                   
                                                                               
 TERRY HERMACH, Valdez, said he was a 20-year resident of Alaska and           
 spent 20 years in Oregon before that.  He thought Senator Taylor's            
 vision of Alaska is very similar to what he left behind there which           
 wasn't a very pretty sight, he said.  Every time it rained the                
 streams turn chocolate brown and the salmon runs are zero.  He very           
 much opposed HB 121 as a very short-sighted bill.                             
                                                                               
 He accused DNR of showing gross negligence in management of state             
 lands in the past and asked how they could expect them to do better           
 in the future.  He said that right now DNR has slated a timber sale           
 for the city limits of Valdez even though the vast majority of the            
 people are opposed to it.                                                     
                                                                               
 The other example was Oil Lease Sale 79 on the Copper River Flats             
 which shows a total disregard for the livelihood of other                     
 industries.                                                                   
                                                                               
 TROY REINHART, Employee Relations and Public Affairs Manager for              
 Ketchikan Pulp, supported HB 121.  To put this in perspective, he             
 said, last year on the Tongass National Forest, where there is                
 truly a large scale forest products industry, 600,000 trees were              
 harvested.  The Society of American Forestry estimates that this              
 year on the Kenai Peninsula 20 million trees died.  This is a                 
 tremendous forest health problem; this isn't a question of the                
 economy; it's just the right thing to do, he said, adding that he             
 is a professional forester.                                                   
                                                                               
 Ketchikan Pulp Co. and the Alaska Forest Association support this             
 bill.  Contrary to what the state forester said, the environmental            
 groups that he deals with do not want to cut one tree whether it's            
 dead or alive.                                                                
                                                                               
 Number 390                                                                    
                                                                               
 SENATOR TAYLOR offered the amendment proposed by DNR, but he                  
 objected for purposes of discussion.                                          
                                                                               
 SENATOR LINCOLN said one of the questions raised in Jan Dahl's memo           
 was regarding fiscal notes.  MR. BOUTIN said the fiscal note                  
 "event" had come about last night and he has not contacted the                
 other agencies today.  SENATOR LINCOLN asked if ADF&G and DEC had             
 testified on this issue.                                                      
                                                                               
 MR. PHELPS said they had numerous conversations with ADF&G about              
 this bill and their concerns were whether habitat was adequately              
 protected and that centered around the question of whether Forest             
 Land Use Plans would continue in effect even if there were some               
 salvage sale that took place.  Working with the forester, they were           
 able to assure ADF&G that that was the case.  Because of those                
 assurances, the department has put forward neither a position paper           
 nor a fiscal note.  The fiscal note from DNR, until very recently,            
 was $0, he explained, because they didn't see that it required them           
 to do anything new.                                                           
                                                                               
 SENATOR LINCOLN moved to adopt DNR amendment #2.  SENATOR TAYLOR              
 objected.                                                                     
                                                                               
 SENATOR LINCOLN asked if the sponsor objected to using the                    
 terminology "dead and dying."                                                 
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE WILLIAMS explained that the reason he disliked using           
 "dead and dying" is that there are areas in the forest where there            
 are dead trees and there might be one or two live trees the insects           
 haven't gotten to, yet.  In order to "manage" a timber stand, it              
 would be easier to cut the live trees also, because you have to               
 build a road through it to get to some of the dead and dying trees.           
                                                                               
 MR. PHELPS added that it doesn't make sense to confine all your               
 harvest to the trees that are actually dead or dying and you open             
 serious litigation possibilities, if under the law, you could only            
 log dead or dying trees in the process of a timber sale.                      
 SENATOR FRANK said he thought they needed a letter of intent to the           
 Department of Natural Resources.                                              
                                                                               
 MR. BOUTIN said a letter of intent along the lines of the first               
 part of amendment #2 would go a long way to appease the people who            
 are concerned they would abuse the language of "timber stands."               
                                                                               
 SENATOR FRANK proposed dividing the amendment into a letter of                
 intent and an amendment regarding the negotiated sale.                        
                                                                               
 SENATOR LEMAN asked if anyone objected to dividing the amendment.             
                                                                               
 SENATOR LINCOLN asked the sponsor if he agreed to work with the               
 department on a letter of intent.  REPRESENTATIVE WILLIAMS said he            
 did agree.  SENATOR LINCOLN, then, withdrew amendment #2.                     
                                                                               
 Number 522                                                                    
                                                                               
 SENATOR TAYLOR moved to adopt amendment #1.  There were no                    
 objections and the sponsor said he accepted it and it was so                  
 ordered.                                                                      
                                                                               
 SENATOR FRANK moved to asked DNR to work with Representative                  
 Williams in writing a letter of intent.  There were no objections             
 and it was so ordered.                                                        
                                                                               
 SENATOR TAYLOR said he also wanted to adopt the committee fiscal              
 note of March 1, 1995 (assumption #1 in a previously received                 
 fiscal note from DNR).  There were no objections and it was so                
 ordered.                                                                      
                                                                               
 SENATOR TAYLOR moved to pass SCSHB 121 from committee with                    
 individual recommendations.  He added that he thought it was                  
 necessary to adequately fund the department if they are going to do           
 any volume of sales.  There were no objections and it was so                  
 ordered.                                                                      

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